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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 21, 2010 10:40:25 GMT -7
Hi All: This is my first post I this forum. I joined about a week ago and have done a little bit of lurking since then and I gotta tell you this forum is absolutely first rate! The videos, and posts are great. Have learned tons already. Alright that's enough booty kissing. My question is who can my son and I improve the performance of the car he built between the Pack race (which he won) and the district race? Assuming the following considerations: 1. his car is impounded by the cub master till just before the race, 2. It's a Jewkes Eng. block built, four on the floor, polished axles and wheels only -rule, graphite lubed, tuned to run straight car. I know you guys like pictures so please see the attached picture of the cars we built. The car he is racing is the middle one. Sorry, but this is only picture I have right now. We built three and raced them on a very simple (Physics of the Pinewood Derby style) test track. Right now we plan to re-lube the car for sure and use a magic eraser to clean the wheel treads. There must be something I am missing. Any thoughts? We got handed our hats last year at district's to a bunch of dad sole builds that were Rail Runner (even though our rules don't allow)! Thanks in advance. I meant what I said you guys seem like a great bunch. Rick BTW, my painting ability sucks! We used the Testors One Coat Lacquers. After painting they looked good, but every time we tried using a stencil it (or the masking tape) would pull the base coat off. So on the car he raced I ended up adding a few coats for clear lacquer and putting the flame stencil. Does anyone have a good source for racing stripe stencils? Flames are okay, but racing stripes would be cooler! Thanks again guys. You will see one of those three cars again in April under the Pure Stock category. Once I get even more "Edge Equipped"!! Although, its a little early for us to race with you guys. It might be better if ran the next "Turtle Race" instead! If we won I could then change my handle to "2SLOW4U" which might better suit by ability as a builder. Let's see polish axles with broken brick, ground glass, and nails- that I could do! Attachments:
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Post by Shade Racing on Feb 21, 2010 11:07:13 GMT -7
are the pack rules same as district rules this year it didn't sound like it last year. Our rules stated the scout earned the right to go to district not the car; so one could build a differant car for district & many did. if rules are differant for district than pack, build a different car to Rail Run or to district rules my
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 21, 2010 11:24:00 GMT -7
I hadn't thought of that. Our pack has alway impounded the car before the district race implying that the scout had to race that car rather than build a new car. Our pack as alway adopted the district rules which really don't address the issue.
thanks for the thought!
UPDATE: I JUST DUG OUT THE RULE
"6. The top three finishers are eligible to compete in the District Pinewood Derby. If a racer cannot attend the District Derby another racer cannot race his car at the event, and an alternate driver should be chosen to represent the Pack or District. Adults will not be allowed to race a car in the event that the youth cannot attend the event. Each individual District will determine the number of finishers, which compete at the next level, should one exist. Cars cannot be tuned up or overhauled to compete at the District level. To ensure that this rule is met, each individual Pack and District requires each Pack’s Race Officials to retain custody of the cars that will compete at the District Pinewood Derby. This shall be done by the Pack Race Officials at the conclusion of the Pack Pinewood Derby in a safe manner. Drivers and Pit Crew may lubricate impounded cars prior to registration on-site at the District Pinewood Derby. Any questions as to the appropriate manner to impound competing cars for the York District Pinewood Derby should be addressed to the Race Coordinator."
Reading this it implies in the first sentenace that a person qualifies and then they say in the middle that you cannot "tune up or overhaul" and to ensure this rule the cars will be impounded. Strange, but a rule is a rule --even if I don't understand it. Looks like I can only add more graphite. For what I read I can't even magic eraser the wheel treads!
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Post by ACME Racing on Feb 21, 2010 13:19:30 GMT -7
I don't understand the rail runner thing. There isn't a strait running car that doesn't hit the rail. Most will ride the rail some anyway. I don't see how they can enforce that rule at all. You would have to post the complete rules for use to dissect. But right now it looks like you can lube your wheels only. But how would they know you cleaned the wheels with your finger? In fact you could turn your wheels on some white paper and if questioned you could say that's the way you work your graphite into the hubs.
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 21, 2010 15:18:09 GMT -7
Amce: I agree with everything you say. It just seems in an attempt to slow down fast cars the resultant rules allow for more and more interpretation and it gets more confusing. Which is why I am starting to now really appreciate the PDDR rules.
Regarding the Rail Runner thing. the rules do not say that you can't do it but they do say "all four wheels must sit flat on the track" I think you can still ride the rail with four wheels, but can you will four wheel flat. Sorry, just a newbie trying to figure this stuff out. I appreciate your response. It's nice to converse with people that know tons more than me! ;D
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Feb 23, 2010 9:33:06 GMT -7
I think one could put a slight bend in both front axles and then steer them in the same direction. With the play between axle and wheel bore, I doubt it would be noticable. One could also have "slots" in his block that were off just a touch, and this would also steer you in a direction. You only need a little bit to ride on that rail ...
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Post by ACME Racing on Feb 23, 2010 18:18:14 GMT -7
You can have toe in with zero camber. This will keep the wheel flat and still turn into the rail. I would run the other front wheel strait. I would also polish the tread on that wheel only and spin it in a bed of graphite to make it very slick. Now I'm not an expert on 4 flat wheels touching. But this seems like it would work in my head. I'm sure Glenn, David or John would know the answer for sure.
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 23, 2010 19:36:48 GMT -7
All great suggestions!!! ;D ;D I didn't have a clue!! Thanks ACME & Woodbutcher !
Anyone else?
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 24, 2010 15:22:52 GMT -7
Mood Swing:
It doesn't say that and I unfortuneately am too much of newbie to know what you mean. Can you explain what we can do?
Thanks in advance,
Rick
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Post by ACME Racing on Feb 24, 2010 16:08:21 GMT -7
Rick, Post all of the rules word for word.
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 24, 2010 17:48:26 GMT -7
Hi Acme:
Here are the rules
GENERAL
1. The race is open to all Tiger Scouts, Cub Scouts and Webelos Scouts (1st year, 2nd year or just graduated to Boy Scouts) registered in the Pack. Siblings can also race following the same rules outlined in this document. However, siblings will not compete for the overall top 5 finishers. The Scouts and siblings will be referred to as “drivers” in these rules. Parents or designated guardians of the scouts will be referred to as the "pit crew" in these rules.
2. All cars competing in the 2010 Pack Pinewood Derby will be specifically made for this year’s Derby. Cars made for any previous year pinewood derby are not permitted.
3. Pinewood derby racecars will be built from an official (2009 or 2010) BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby Kit. This kit includes the pinewood block, axles, and wheels necessary to build the car. The purchase of machined wheels and polished axles from other suppliers is specifically prohibited.
4. Decorative items such as steering wheels, drivers, spoilers, decals and interior details are permissible as long as the finished car meets the York District Pine Tree Council Pinewood Derby rules and specifications. Drivers are encouraged not to promote the use of alcoholic beverages or tobacco products by the use of decals advertising these products when decorating their racecars.
5. Any driver (including a member of the pit crew) has the right to appeal to the race officials for an interpretation of these rules. The race officials, by majority vote, will be the final interpreters of these rules. However, an interpretation of the rules at the Pack or District level does not necessarily ensure a similar interpretation at the Council level. All rulings by the Race Officials at each level of competition will be considered final.
6. The top three finishers are eligible to compete in the District Pinewood Derby. If a racer cannot attend the District Derby another racer cannot race his car at the event, and an alternate driver should be chosen to represent the Pack or District. Adults will not be allowed to race a car in the event that the youth cannot attend the event. Each individual District will determine the number of finishers, which compete at the next level, should one exist. Cars cannot be tuned up or overhauled to compete at the District level. To ensure that this rule is met, each individual Pack and District requires each Pack’s Race Officials to retain custody of the cars that will compete at the District Pinewood Derby. This shall be done by the Pack Race Officials at the conclusion of the Pack Pinewood Derby in a safe manner. Drivers and Pit Crew may lubricate impounded cars prior to registration on-site at the District Pinewood Derby. Any questions as to the appropriate manner to impound competing cars for the York District Pinewood Derby should be addressed to the Race Coordinator. CONSTRUCTION SPECIFICATIONS
7. Dimensions a) The minimum width between wheels shall be 1 3/4 inches. b) The maximum overall width of the car, including wheels and axles, must not exceed 2 3/4 inches. c) Minimum clearance between the bottom of the car and the bottom of the wheels (between the wheels) shall be 3/8 inch. d) The maximum length of the car shall not exceed 7 inches. e) The maximum height of the car shall not exceed 4 3/4 inches from the bottom of the wheels. f) When not using the pre-cut axles locations in the official pinewood car block, the following dimensions must be maintained: - Nominal wheelbase of 4 3/8 inches. - Dimension of 15/16 inch from one end of the block to the axle. - Dimension of 1 11/16 inch from the other end of the block to the axle.
8. Weight a) The car may be hollowed out and built up to the maximum weight of 5 oz. by the addition of wood or metal only, provided it is securely built into the body or firmly affixed to it. b) No loose materials of any kind, such as lead shot, are permitted in or on the car. c) If tape (masking, scotch, etc.) is used to hold weights on the car, it must be tightly attached to the car. Using tape to secure weight is not recommended. It is recommended that weights on the bottom of the car be inset so they are flush with the bottom of the wood block.
9. Wheels and Axles a) Only Official Cub Scout Pinewood Derby wheels, with the official B.S.A. stamp on the inside of the wheel, and Official Cub Scout Pinewood Derby axles shall be used. b) Axles may be polished only. c) Solid axles are strictly prohibited. d) Wheel bearings, washers, or bushings are prohibited. e) The car shall not ride on any type of springs. f) Wheels may be sanded to remove the mold projection on the tread only. This is the only wheel modification allowed. Beveling or tapering of the wheels is prohibited. The entire portion of the wheel must remain flat except for the outermost edge that comes rounded from the factory casting. Examples of acceptable and unacceptable wheels are shown in Figure 1. The portion of the wheel hub that rubs against the car body may only be polished to remove castings. No other modifications to the hub are allowable. The portion of the hub that rubs against the car body may not be rolled or beveled in any way and shall remain flat. If in the act of polishing, the hub becomes rolled or beveled, the hub will be deemed non-conforming and the wheel will need to be replaced with a conforming wheel. g) All four wheels must sit flat on the track. Wheel covers and hubcap type wheel covers will not be allowed and must be removed by the driver prior to racing at the District competition.
Figure 1 — Examples of Unacceptable and Acceptable Wheels
[glow=red,2,300]this had a figure showing that the wheel tread should be flat not rouned or angled[/glow].
10. Lubrication a) Only dry lubricant may be used. Regular oils and silicon sprays soften the plastic wheels. b) Cars are to be lubricated before inspection/registration. No other lubrication will be permitted.
11. Miscellaneous a) Cars must be freewheeling with no starting device or other propulsion. b) No part of the racecar may protrude past the starting post.
INSPECTION
12. Each car must pass inspection by the Pack or District Inspection Team at each event before it may compete. Each Inspection Team has the right to disqualify any car that does not meet the rules and specifications. Drivers will be informed of any violations and will be given an opportunity to fix the specified violations.
13. The Pack or District Inspection Team will weigh all cars at registration. The readings of the Official Race Scale at each event will be considered final. It is possible scale measurements will differ between the Pack and District Pinewood Derbies. Race car drivers and their pit crews must be prepared to adjust weight to meet the readings of the Official Race Scale at each level of competition.
14. Cars can be re-inspected at any time. If the car does not meet the rules and specifications, it must be brought into compliance before its next race or it will be disqualified. If a car is found to not meet the rules and specifications after the last race is run, the car will be disqualified. All disqualified cars’ scores will be removed from the record. A minimum of five minutes will be allowed for a driver (or his pit crew) to bring his car into compliance if a problem is found during a race.
15. Once cars have been registered, weighed, and inspected, they will remain in the custody of the Pack and District Race Officials until the end of the competition.
16. Pinewood Derby Cars with wet paint or glue will not be accepted for inspection. RACE TRACK
17. Only drivers racing in or staging for a race, race officials, or members of the Track Team will be permitted in the track area. Other people may be allowed in the track area when specifically approved by the race officials.
18. Each driver shall handle only his own car. A driver may be disqualified if he touches or handles another driver's car.
19. Each race will be announced and drivers will be called to the track area.
20. Drivers will be assigned lanes by a random choice method.
21. Drivers will report to the starting line when the Starter directs them to and will place their cars on the appropriate lane. Scouts will be allowed 15 seconds to align their car on the track.
22. The Starter will ensure all cars are on the track lanes properly. Cars may be readjusted for proper placement at the direction of the Starter. Cars may not protrude beyond the starting post . 23. If a car leaves the track, runs out of its lane, interferes with another car, loses an axle, etc., the race will be rerun. If the same car gets into trouble on the second run, the car automatically loses the race. The Race Officials at each level of competition will decide, by majority vote, if a car can continue to race after it has these types of problems in two consecutive runs.
24. If a car suffers a mechanical problem during a race (loses an axle, breaks a wheel, etc.), the driver or his pit crew will have up to five minutes to fix the car. The driver will then be allowed to race his car. If repairs cannot be made in this time frame, the car will be disqualified.
25. If a car suffers a mechanical problem after a race, the driver or his pit crew will have five minutes or until the next race to fix the car. If repairs cannot be made in this time frame, the car will be disqualified.
RACE MANAGEMENT
26. The Pack Pinewood Derby will use the Stearns method of racing.
27. The results of a race (i.e. first, second or third place) will normally be determined by an official electronic finish line. This will be supervised by at least one member of the Track Team. In the event of a failure or the absence of an electronic finish line, the Pack or District Race Officials will prescribe the method for determining the results of a race.
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 25, 2010 6:56:26 GMT -7
[glow=red,2,300] Great suggestion....Man that's a tough one though. I can see the scout leaders huddling for 5 minutes in a corner when I bring that one up! It will come down to whether they think the car meets the spirit of the rules or not. [/glow]
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Post by txchemist on Feb 25, 2010 8:42:33 GMT -7
So if you use the new wheels that are hub coned, they might go ape if they don't know the wheel came that way. Polish the axle only?- You can't remove the flash and call it a "polishing". Go for the new wheels and be ready to argue.
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Post by Vacationland Racing on Feb 25, 2010 8:46:06 GMT -7
good idea, I think they came it the kit so we will have a good argument! Thanks Txchemist!
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