Post by 2FAST4U on Jan 25, 2009 19:52:32 GMT -7
Derby Talk
~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
Goto page 1, 2 Next
Derby Talk Forum Index -> Derby Products and Services
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
A1nogoslo
Pine Head
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 58
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coming Soon "E S S" Edge Super Starter
"Electromagnetic Starting System" Engineered to work with all of the Aluminum "BestTrack" Models
Even the 1 lane 20' test tracks all the way up to the 49' 8 lane... we have ya covered... and beyond
If you already own a "Besttrack" or thinking of getting one, this System will work for you
Comes complete with all the necessary hardware... No additional parts to modify
Only 1 drilled hole is needed to hook up the linkage... Easy installation... up and running in a short time
Comes in 3 Awesome Anodized and Etched Colors, Red, Blue and Black
Safe and user freindly... Low Voltage, only 12 volts... No batteries required
Built in starting button or 50+ feet of cable with thumb switch to start anywhere in the room
Manual start gates can have inconsistent starts, Bad news when running Timed races...
If your a first time Scout Racer or a District Winner then The "E S S" is the choice for you...
You have a Scout race and want some fun for the kids, give them the switch and let them start the race...
Time Tested... Race Prov-en ... Designed for you in mind... Built by Racers for Racers... and much much more........
Click on link below to watch a preview of the ESS System
Make sure you click on high quality setting for better viewing
www.jewkesengineering.com
Back to top
Grubartez
Pine Head
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 62
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was lucky enough to get an early proto-type version of an ESS and have been using it on my personal Besttrack for about 2 months. It is really neat to be able to start the cars from any location and watch the cars from different angles. It took about 15 min to install and was very easy to do. The ESS has given me more consistent times over the manual start gate. The kids really enjoy starting their races while they are down at the stop section also. Since I test and tune late at night by myself, it comes in handy starting the cars when I'm down at eye level at the end of the track.
Back to top
sporty
Moderator
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 1019
Location: rockfalls, Illinois
Posted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I watched the video.
Thats pretty neat idea and system.
Kids can do it, They would fight over who gets to fit the button.
I bet in the future, might see a universal kit for a wider track selection.
Sporty
Back to top
Darin McGrew
Master Pine Head
Joined: 18 Jul 2003
Posts: 954
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It looks like this is an electronic release for a spring-loaded gate. Is that accurate?
Or is it an electronic gate? Or is it something else?
_________________
Darin McGrew
Photos of Unusual Derby Cars
Upcoming Car Rallyes in Silicon Valley
Back to top
A1nogoslo
Pine Head
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 58
Location: West Valley City, Utah
Posted: Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darin McGrew wrote:
It looks like this is an electronic release for a spring-loaded gate. Is that accurate?
Or is it an electronic gate? Or is it something else?
It's an "Electromagnetic Starting System" for "BestTrack" brand Tracks.
Yes "BestTrack" uses a spring loaded Hinge style pin gate.
Accurate? Yes very accurate, Time tested race proven for 2 years now with 10,000+ starts...
This system starts the gate the same everytime. Consistent pulls on the level produce accurate starts.
Back to top
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:40 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A1nogoslo wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:
It looks like this is an electronic release for a spring-loaded gate. Is that accurate?
Or is it an electronic gate? Or is it something else?
...
Accurate? Yes very accurate,
...
This system starts the gate the same everytime. Consistent pulls on the level produce accurate starts.
I believe that Darin was asking if his understanding was accurate.
Personally, I don't really see how an electro-mechanical start can make timing more accurate with a "spring loaded open" design type start gate. By removing some of the human element, I can surely see that it would improve the consistency of the start, but I do not see how that affects the timing accuracy. Timing starts the moment the lever releases the gate, whether a human is operating the lever or an electro-mechanical device.
Is the start switch for the timer still being used? or does the start signal to the timer come from the activation signal to trip this gate release unit?
What's your pricing projected to be on these? Will you have these available un-anodized and without the etched logo? To those on a tight budget, those details add to the customer's cost, but are just for cosmetics sake.
When do you expect to have these available?
_________________
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8, www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:8&version=31
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Back to top
10range
Journeyman
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
Posts: 27
Location: South Bend, indiana
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am also curious how the consistency compares to a spring loaded gate. Is there a major difference or is this system more geared towards replacing the manual dropped gates?
Back to top
Grubartez
Pine Head
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 62
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:14 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for consistency, this is what I saw the other night on my track when I was tuning in a Modified car for an upcoming race. I staged the car the exact same way (as close as I possibly could) and using the ESS I ran 7 consecutive runs of 2.893 seconds. Each run was the exact same time. I then ran 7 more runs, staging the car the same as before and using the manual start lever. The times ranged from 2.894 to 2.908. So with the ESS I got the same time every time and with the manual start, the times had a range of 0.014 seconds. Could be a coincidence, who knows, but man it is a neat rig.
Back to top
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grubartez wrote:
I staged the car the exact same way (as close as I possibly could) and using the ESS I ran 7 consecutive runs of 2.893 seconds. Each run was the exact same time. I then ran 7 more runs, staging the car the same as before and using the manual start lever. The times ranged from 2.894 to 2.908. So with the ESS I got the same time every time and with the manual start, the times had a range of 0.014 seconds.
Again, I can see an improvement on consistency. That is in how the gate is opened (consistent amount of force applied to lever, consistent amount of vibration imparted to the track), but I really don't see how that would affect timing accuracy.
So, it goes back to one of my questions on how the timer gets the start indication. I've seen this done two ways:
1) There is a start switch or sensor that is independent of the electronic gate release. The physical opening of the gate starts the timing.
2) The activation signal for the electronic gate release device causes the timing to start.
The first way I consider to be the correct way. The second I would consider to be the wrong way because activation of the device is not the same as the gate being opened. Any variability whatsoever in the operation of the electro-mechanical unit will induce variation in the timing. Maybe over time the solenoid starts sticking a bit, maybe the linkage starts binding a bit, etc. Scenario #2, with a brand new unit, can make you think that timing accuracy has been improved, but over time timing variation can creep in due to wear and tear.
The start of timing should really occur when the gate is opened, not when some device is activated. So, that brings it back to my question...How does the start signal get to the timer with this particular device?
_________________
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8, www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:8&version=31
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Back to top
blcrow33
Pine Head
Joined: 28 Nov 2006
Posts: 98
Location: Sagamore Hills, Ohio
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why would a spring loaded manual device be any less accurate? The spring is what drops the starting pin each time and I would think the spring would be consistent. Plus the spring drops it so fast with a manual start, does the cars even have time to start going before the pins are fully down. I like the idea if not having to stand at the head of the track to drop the starting pins, but I find it hard to believe it would give you different times compared to the spring loaded start.
Back to top
Grubartez
Pine Head
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 62
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just as A1nogoslo said, it pulls the starting lever which in turn opens the start gate and triggers the timing switch/sensor that is located under the track at the start gate. The main reason I got it was to be able to start from any location. If I want to start it while I'm at the transition, half way, at track joints, at the end or even if I want to stand outside on the deck and look in through the window I can do it with this system. The added consistency is just an added bonus.
Back to top
Go Bubba Go
Moderator
Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 1141
Location: Northern, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gpraceman wrote:
Grubartez wrote:
I staged the car the exact same way (as close as I possibly could) and using the ESS I ran 7 consecutive runs of 2.893 seconds. Each run was the exact same time. I then ran 7 more runs, staging the car the same as before and using the manual start lever. The times ranged from 2.894 to 2.908. So with the ESS I got the same time every time and with the manual start, the times had a range of 0.014 seconds.
Again, I can see an improvement on consistency. That is in how the gate is opened (consistent amount of force applied to lever, consistent amount of vibration imparted to the track), but I really don't see how that would affect timing accuracy.
EDIT: Found a little more time to clarify, hopefully my prior comments weren't too brief to be useful. That being said:
From my perspective the issue at hand is whether the method of opening the start gate can negatively impact the performance of a car during a particular run. If so, then one has to give some thought to the relative importance of the magnitude of the negative impact versus the consistency of the negative impact.
If one is primarily interested in achieving the best possible time for a single pass down the track (i.e. a "track record"), then one would pursue a method of opening the start gate that (while it may or may not be consistent) at least on occasion produces the absolute least degree of negative impact. A few "slow" times when the negative impact of the start gate opening method was on the high end of the spectrum would be a small price to pay (they are basically disregarded anyway) for the "fast" times when the negative impact of the start gate opening method is on the low end of the spectrum.
If, however, one is primarily interested in racing several cars against one another and using average times (as is common in "kid" racing or league racing) to see how they "stack up", then one would pursue a method that produces the most consistent negative impact in order to ensure (all other things being equal) that the component of the average times for each car that could be attributed to delays from negative impact of the start gate opening method is consistent for all the cars.
(Of course, we really want BOTH minimal AND consistent negative impact, but if our main objective is to see how the cars "stack up", then our main concern is consistency).
So what do I mean by the method of opening the start gate negatively impacting the performance of a car during a particular run?
A few months ago I was driving myself batty with a car that would run smoothly down the track for a while, then go "wiggly", then go smoothly again. After banging my head on the wall playing with the amount of steer for a while, I noticed that the "wiggly" runs were occuring when I was a little more rushed / distracted and I was actually pulling the start lever slightly to one side during those times. Apparently the very minor amount of lateral vibration was enough to disturb the car's otherwise smooth ride. After playing for a while with the lever (pull softly, pull harder, pull slightly to the side, lean my chest against the track to minimize lateral movement, etc.) I found that I could very easily throw the car's performance off (sometimes just a bit slower, sometimes slower with wiggle, etc.) based on how I pulled the gate and how well I had braced the top of the track. Even a barely visible "tweak" could produce a noticeable difference (when you are talking thousandths of a second, even the slightest "tilt" registers).
Anyway, given that it does appear that the method of opening the start gate can negatively impact the performance of a car during a particular run, it would seem that the best course of action for most of us would be to pursue a method with the greatest degree of consistency. Whether a system like ESS would provide a larger or smaller negative impact to all cars I couldn't say (just don't know enough about it, I suspect less based on the builders), but I am quite confident based on principle and observed performance that a mechanical system would be / is more consistent than a manual method using even the most "steady handed" of human beings.
Bubba
_________________
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Last edited by Go Bubba Go on Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Go Bubba Go wrote:
Perhaps I am the only one that does this, but I have noticed that on occasion I will impart even some lateral vibration to the start lever (and thus the top of the track), and even a minor amount will show a demonstrable impact (in case of side to side shimmy, esp. at the start) to the cars when I do this. Even when shimmy isn't present, I can "force" a car to come in a little slower by just the slightest tug left or right on the handle.
I could possibly see that, but we'd need to see a good chunk of data to back that theory up. There is a statistical test between two sets of data that can be applied to see if there truly is a reduction in timing variation or if any perceived reduction is just lost in the noise of the data. Maybe there is an impartial 3rd party that can do the testing and report back the data.
_________________
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8, www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:8&version=31
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Back to top
Mr. Slick
Master Pine Head
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 178
Location: Minnesota
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I happen to have a league's worth of data before and after using the gate. . . anyone want to do the analysis?
I can state with 100% confidence that using the ESS type device makes a difference in consistency. When using the lever by hand we found that how the lever is pulled makes a difference. We found that using a single finger to lightly pull back on the lever produced the most repeatable results.
Lateral - side to side - vibration of the track is a major issue with "excited" starters. We can have a .2 second difference due to the track being vibrated by starting gate release. Think of taking a rail rider and making it bounce from side to side. . . . ugly! I'm guessing that the time difference is all in the first few feet of travel. . .
_________________
Mr. Slick says: Honey, I am doing this for the kids, not myself.
Back to top
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Slick wrote:
Well, I happen to have a league's worth of data before and after using the gate. . . anyone want to do the analysis?
It seemed from your post on the PWDRacing forum that you didn't have one of these.
I'm rather surprised that with the BestTrack's rear leg structure (wider than the track, at the floor), that you would be getting a noticeable vibration effect.
_________________
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8, www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:8&version=31
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
Goto page Previous 1, 2
Derby Talk Forum Index -> Derby Products and Services
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
sporty
Moderator
Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 1019
Location: rockfalls, Illinois
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:57 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few comments I would like to additionally make.
If the cost is fair, then even if it was just as equal as a manual pull lever.
The added bonus in my view is the kids being able to push a button to start the cars down the track.
In 8 years, I have never seen a child release the gate in a official cub scout race.
on the other hand, any data. needs also to be looked at with the tracks.
1 lane, two lane, three lane tracks, and so on.
I would also think it would have to be able to be compared to the previous method on the same track before testing for comparison.
Not all tracks have timers and still many races are not raced by time.
The hardest part, is ensuring during the change over for testing, is no bumping of the laser or changing of the starting pins or track moved on the floor.
I just simply can't imagine how the data would come out or how it's looked at, that this would not be a fun addition with the kids just being able to push a button reguardless of the data.
The down fall is trying to make it universal to go on a veriety of tracks, especially wooden with no spring gate.
cost is always a factor for cub scout packs. If a universal kit for under $100 can be achieved, then I see the packs taking a look at it.
Sporty
Back to top
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2365
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe this would be a good experiment for MaxV's newsletter. He's very good at coming up with a good experimental procedure and examining the data. Maybe he'd be willing to take on such an experiment with this unit or one of the other units on the market. There are even three others that I know of that are currently under development or in testing.
To get good data, you would need to try to use the same car or sets of cars. Try to load them the same every time and in the same lane(s). Test with and without a solenoid gate. I think the track would also have to remain setup to minimize any chance that the track will run differently for each phase of the experiment.
I'd love to see the results for such an experiment. If these units help reduce the vibration to the track or at least make it consistent (and thus reduce timing variation), then maybe it is worth the investment. Or maybe the data will show no statistical difference. It would be better to have some good experimental data to examine, under controlled conditions, than to just go off advertising hype or people's impressions.
So, Randy D., you interested?
_________________
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8, www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205:8&version=31
Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
Back to top
priority
Apprentice
Joined: 09 Jan 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Houston, TX
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gpraceman wrote:
Again, I can see an improvement on consistency. That is in how the gate is opened (consistent amount of force applied to lever, consistent amount of vibration imparted to the track), but I really don't see how that would affect timing accuracy.
I spent several hours over the past weeks tuning a new 2-lane Best Track. Prior to my efforts, I would have agreed with you. However, after tweaking everything I could to get perfectly smooth joints, I was still seeing more variation than made sense to me. Out of frustration, I downloaded a demo copy of your software and found I was seeing 20 msec std dev. After trading emails with Steve Monk of Best Track, I decided that the jolt from the starting gate was the issue. I played around with foam rubber in various locations to dampen the jolt from the starting gate and now the std deviation on the same car is down to 1 millisec. Similar numbers were seen on 3 other cars.
I wouldn't be surprised to see even more timing inaccuracies from side to side bumps on the track from an overly jittery starter.
Mr. Slick
Master Pine Head
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 179
Location: Minnesota
Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have the prototype one from the 2008 Bluegrass Nationals that the Jewkes provided. It is now used on the 3 lane league track. I need another one that is fully enclosed/kid proof/volunteer proof for the big 6 lane track that I use for the pack races.
I have lots of tracks(6?) so I need lots of stuff!
_________________
Mr. Slick says: Honey, I am doing this for the kids, not myself.
Update
TalknDerby
Apprentice
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 1
Location: The Stix, Missouri
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:28 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My husband showed the video of the E.S.S. to our Pack leader who also assists in the running of 2 of the 5 districts in our area. Everyone was elated to see this, as it will bring something new to the track for everyone to participate with. We would want to get the extension package so "the button" could be passed around giving each of our young builders a chance to drop the flag. If it helps reduce any track variances or timing issues then of course that would be a huge bonus. I guess it is alot like all the tips people hand out here, they should help at least a little bit if followed, right? So if you have that same potential to get the playing field a bit more fair and even, and truely leave it up to the hard work and craftsmanship the kids work so hard to accomplish, isn't it worth trying? Could a more fair playing field help the pinewood derby races grow in participiation? I hope so on both of those questions, because I assume we are all here to help others with this hobby and see it flurish.
How soon will these be ready, and will all the colors be available?
ps. My family has been lurking here for quite sometime and we joined your forum the other day, so take it easy on the new kids here We have gotten a lot of help from the members here over the past couple years by watching and following topics, so, thank you!
Update
gpraceman
Site Admin
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 2367
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: Re: ~E S S~ "Edge Super Starter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, by next season, it seems there will several units for people to choose from. I know of 3 other systems either in testing or under development. That is in addition to the three units currently offered by New Directions. Hopefully, that will mean there will be choices in differing budget ranges and working with differing tracks.
_________________
Randy Lisano
Stay tuned for my answers with out getting deleted or banned...
2fast4u / Glenn Jewkes