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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 6, 2011 17:54:19 GMT -7
While working on a jig for drilling axle holes, I wondered what it might look like inside, so ... This is one of the test subjects, drilled on both sides. Interesting. One set is crooked, the other fine. Funny, with the wheels installed I couldn't tell. Cut it open and suprise!
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Post by 2FAST4U on Apr 6, 2011 22:43:31 GMT -7
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Post by Advance The Man on Apr 7, 2011 6:29:32 GMT -7
So I'm assuming you did this without the Block? If so, I'll do the same with the Block and post pics. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 7, 2011 7:41:36 GMT -7
THERE ALREADY IS A JIG FOR YA... Why, Glenn. What in the world could you be refring to? Is there such a wonderful thing that can do this for me - and so much more? Your assuming I don't use the method. The cut away just shows no matter how careful you are about drilling, the bit can still wander on you. I drilled that block 4 times and 1 wandered out of square (relatively speaking). It had a different angle but was still in line with the other side. This is another reason I don't like pine. It doesn't machine very well. Actually, the jig I made was to set the ride hight. Also, the table on my drill press is kinda small so this gives me the space needed. A dowel locates it on the table, T bolts and star nuts hold it down.The fence on it is fixed, and by using a spacer of a certain width I can set the ride hieght accurately each time. To level out the car I use 2 spacers as the front axle needs to be a bit higher to keep the rear vertical. Goes on and comes of in less than a minute so I can use the DP for other projects (read= Honey-do-list). Th Later
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Post by Exorcist3D on Apr 7, 2011 9:59:38 GMT -7
Hopfully I don't get black listed for posting this, but racing is racing and despite the craftsmanship that is required for pwd cars money still=speed. The crooked holes you've shown highlight why many have gone to using a Proxxon to drill the axle holes. The run-out of a standard drill press is a lot, especially when compared as a percentage of the bit diameter. I held out on buying a proxxon for quite awhile as other than building pwd derby cars, I didn’t see that I would have much use for it as it’s so small. After fighting my drill press and ruining 10 or so blocks, I went over to my friends nearby machine shop and drilled the axles using a vertical mill, the precision of the hole was unbelievable! I knew immediately this must be why everyone had a proxxon. I ordered one the next day. The Proxxon delivered the same results as the vertical mill did and was much easier to use, maybe even better holes as it has a higher rpm than a vertical mill does. Also, I would recommend buying a large piece of sugar pine to cut up for blocks, the growth rings aren’t as hard which gives it excellent machineability. Also it seems to be more stable as it probably has higher quality controls to dry it down. I went to a local mill shop to find it as its typically used for indoor trim or woodwork for high quality applications. There is claims its lighter and stronger also, which it may very well be, but those are secondary benefits IMO. If you can’t find it locally, order it from JE or ___, next best would be to buy the better quality dimensional pine sold at HD or Lowes…
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Post by aircooled on Apr 7, 2011 16:44:46 GMT -7
Very interesting reading. What model Proxxon drill press did you get?
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Post by Exorcist3D on Apr 8, 2011 14:50:33 GMT -7
They only sell one drill press that I know of: TBM115, although there is the same press in a different voltage, not sure if it's for 220 or europe, just change the last 3 digits for the other voltage.
-Jason
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 11, 2011 18:02:24 GMT -7
So thats your answer? Throw money at it? $ does not = speed. Knowledge and skill equals speed. Sure, money can help, but a guy can spend $300 on a Proxxon and block and the stupid bit can still wander in use. You're right on it about the material. A better grade of pine (not a pallet) and a higher speed setting will take care of it. There were 4 sets of holes in that block and only 1 hole was off. I already have a woodshop from my first hobby, woodworking. So that is where I am coming from. Everything I have put in there has lots of uses. My current drill press was purchased nearly 10 years ago because I needed it for a project and couldn't resist the $100 price tag. In hindsight I should have purchased a large floor standing model. I am constantly working around it's small size. So for my money, a proxxon won't do. For that $300 I would rather purchase a small lathe wich can drill my derby car holes and much more. Like you said, the Proxxon is too small to do anything else with but a lathe will allow me to make my own stuff, which is what I probably enjoy doing the most anyway.
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Post by Exorcist3D on Apr 13, 2011 8:55:28 GMT -7
My apologies for the response, this was a topic I was super frustrated with at that time. Still am to some degree... An explanation seems appropriate:
I have a background of racing dirt circle track cars, and this tends to sour my viewpoint on many forms of racing, in the motorsports game it always comes back to money. Unless you have every possible dollar spent on every piece of technology or equipment available, it’s nearly impossible to win. No matter how much skill and effort you put into it, money trumps it.
My main hobby/activity is mountain bike racing and I love this form of racing because skill & training = speed. A person can spend a fortune on a fancy bike but there is absolutely no way it will help you pedal up the hill fast enough to win a race. Mountain bike racing is also basically a time trial, so there is nearly no teamwork or strategy involved to complicate things, it’s you against the other guy and whoever has the most trail skills and trained the most will win.
IMO Pinewood derby racing falls somewhere in the middle, there is a huge amount of craftsmanship involved, but there is also the necessity for precision equipment. IMO neither one trumps the other, a big budget and fancy shop equipment won’t guarantee you to win (I’m not counting the possibility of buying a completed car), and neither will being the best craftsman with the most skill.
When I wrote the previous post, I had just spent 20+ hours figuring out how to eliminate those “random” crooked axle holes. I was completely frustrated with the block as I was finding out it takes more than the block alone to drill good holes. Like anything, user error, can cause a fantastic piece of equipment to not work. I found it was a combo of my procedures and my equipment were causing the problems.
I still highly recommend getting a Proxxon or some other method of drilling precision holes, because I have found that with the sugarpine, the block, the proxxon, and a good drilling process the drill bits don’t walk and drill straight as an arrow. It’s actually surprising, because I would never have guessed or thought possible how amazingly precise the holes can be drilled!
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 13, 2011 9:34:47 GMT -7
You're right in it, 3D! The Proxxon excells at what it is designed for. Drilling holes (on a small scale). Also, (because it's small) it doesn't take much space. You can set up a "speed shop" just about anywhere.
What you described about your frustration of the holes coming out perfect is exactly what I was talking about. The speed secrets for these cars are freely shared in this forum. People will tell you 98% of what they know. (You can work for the rest, right?) Well, just because you have a list of techniques and specs for the car doesn't mean you can execute them perfectly. It takes some time to develop the skills. Thats the thrill of the hunt for speed we all enjoy - and what frustrates us!
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Post by *5 J's* on Apr 13, 2011 10:59:41 GMT -7
I like the extended drill press table. My table is only 6", so over half of "The Block" hangs off the table when I am drilling. I think I would also incorporate the front and rears stops as John demo's in his video of the Block. What is the difference in the heights provided by the "Front" and "Rear" spacers in your picture. I don't change the location of the fence. The rears holes end drilled higher in the body then the fronts as I drill the rears with the pin under for cant, but drill the fronts straight. I set the fence to drill the fronts just above the lip in the block. With respect to drilling holes. Just because a drill has 0.003" of runout does not mean it will not drill perfectly straight holes. You need to ensure you are using the right bit and speed for the wood you are drilling. I have found a brad point bit running at 1800 rpm to do a fine job.
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 13, 2011 17:50:44 GMT -7
I like the extended drill press table. My table is only 6", so over half of "The Block" hangs off the table when I am drilling. I think I would also incorporate the front and rears stops as John demo's in his video of the Block. What is the difference in the heights provided by the "Front" and "Rear" spacers in your picture. I don't change the location of the fence. The rears holes end drilled higher in the body then the fronts as I drill the rears with the pin under for cant, but drill the fronts straight. I set the fence to drill the fronts just above the lip in the block. . The difference is almost 1/8". By just about 1/64. When you load the car blank onto your is the car bottom toching the block? How do you determine your wheelbase layout? What I have done is to copy from what I saw John doing in his old video. He leaves the fence in place and uses a spacer to set the ride height (or at least he used to!). With the height set, you can use a pencil and square to mark where they will fall in terms of wheelbase. This tolerance isn't as tight as the depth. Last year I got into an argument with Glenn over the use of the fence on the DP. He didn't like my comment about the fence not being necessary. If you are going to 'target' your crosshair pencil marks, why do you need a fence? The point I was trying to make is that the fence is absolutely necessary. It determines how deep the holes are drilled and should never move. This keeps the canted rear axles in line with each other and is very important. But just as important is where the front is drilled too. I am a proponent of using spacers and shims with a fixed fence to determine where the holes are drilled. It's a process that is very accurate, repaetable, and predictable. You mention that you want to use stops along with the spacer, right? Just like John explains, it does help to keep the whole thing inplace. If you wanted to take it a step further, it can also determine the wheelbase. Then it becomes very repeatable and accurate. You're not just sighting up a pencil line and lowering the bit. Just my
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Post by Wood Butcher Racing on Apr 13, 2011 17:54:18 GMT -7
I want to give you guys a BIG THANK YOU for this thread. I have drilled more blocks of wood than I can count and I still would make errors. Reading this thread really made me stop and evaluate the issues. I have now created a new method that has turned out to be as close to flawless as I have found. Walking drill bits aren't the issue. The Block walking is the bigger issue. I also came up with a new method as far as making sure the axles are directly across from each other. I am playing with drilling heights and a few other things. My first car out is faster than my current pure stocker! All my drilled blocks from here out will be done using this method so I am certain they will be even better! Please don't take it wrong if I don't show what I am doing. Send any complaints to Murph, Rick, Spacewalker and the gang. They get no more free R&D. Wow, John. You've been busy. Glad I can help.
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Post by *5 J's* on Apr 14, 2011 4:01:01 GMT -7
All right a dirt track man! Asphalt is to get you to the race............dirt is to race on!!!! What kind of dirt track racing? I live an hour and a half from William's Grove and love to see the PA posse beat the Outlaws! We try to make an annual mecca to PA to hit William's Grove as well as other tracks in the area - trying to hit a Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday show. <and get some Yuengling beer!>
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Post by *5 J's* on Apr 14, 2011 4:13:45 GMT -7
The difference is almost 1/8". By just about 1/64. When you load the car blank onto your is the car bottom toching the block? How do you determine your wheelbase layout? What I have done is to copy from what I saw John doing in his old video. He leaves the fence in place and uses a spacer to set the ride height (or at least he used to!). With the height set, you can use a pencil and square to mark where they will fall in terms of wheelbase. This tolerance isn't as tight as the depth. Last year I got into an argument with Glenn over the use of the fence on the DP. He didn't like my comment about the fence not being necessary. If you are going to 'target' your crosshair pencil marks, why do you need a fence? The point I was trying to make is that the fence is absolutely necessary. It determines how deep the holes are drilled and should never move. This keeps the canted rear axles in line with each other and is very important. But just as important is where the front is drilled too. I am a proponent of using spacers and shims with a fixed fence to determine where the holes are drilled. It's a process that is very accurate, repaetable, and predictable. You mention that you want to use stops along with the spacer, right? Just like John explains, it does help to keep the whole thing inplace. If you wanted to take it a step further, it can also determine the wheelbase. Then it becomes very repeatable and accurate. You're not just sighting up a pencil line and lowering the bit. Just my Yes - I "load" my body into the with the bottom of the car against the For the wheelbase I just draw lines on the block not crosshairs. I have my fence set such that the drill bit is as close to the lip on the as I can get it for the DFW. When I put the pin under to drill the rears canted it tips the block up and drill the rears up a little higher in the rear. This allows the rear of the car to sit down a bit lower then the front. I did the math but cannot remember by how much. I think I am going to build a drill press table that accommodate the entire with stops <perhaps lockdown> that will hold the fore/aft while drilling. These would be used to set the wheelbase.
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